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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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 Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 18:06 Post subject: what the mircosoft? |
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Don't know how many people have seen this yet, the public non-beta versions were launched about a month ago.. but, well.. m$ has temporarily entered the Freeware software arena. Yeah, thats what I said. WTF.
For a year, for free, you can download "express" versions of Visual Studio applications. After that year is up, if you already downloaded them during the free period.. they remain free to you.
I've downloaded these already and checked them, they're pretty nice. It's got some odd bits tho, like the way you have to build things in VB now..
Windows developer edition
Visual J# 2005 Express Edition
Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition
Visual C# 2005 Express Edition
Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition
Web developer edition (Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition)
DB developer edition (SQL Server 2005 Express Edition)
Each component is also seperately downloadable..
Sure seems like this beats the hell out of the previously free commandline compiler + 3rd party editor. I hate to say it, but is actually pretty damn cool..
| Quote: | 11. You said “free for one year” — what does that mean, exactly? Will you be charging for this later?
We originally announced pricing of Visual Studio Express at US$49. We are now offering Visual Studio Express for free, as a limited-in-time promotional offer, until November 6, 2006. Note that we are also offering SQL Server 2005 Express Edition as a free download, and that this offer is not limited to the same promotional pricing period as Visual Studio Express.
12. Do customers who acquire the Visual Studio Express products during the free promotional pricing period have to pay after the first year if they want to continue to use them?
No, as long as you download Visual Studio Express on or before November 7th 2006, you will not have to pay for it. |
edit: forgot the link:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/default.aspx
,... and even more WTF.. they have a step by step guide showing ppl how to use ISOBuster 
Last edited by mute on Tuesday December 27th, 2005 18:40; edited 1 time in total |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 18:37 Post subject: |
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Zephod
Blokhead
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 20:43 Post subject: |
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| Ive read some rumours that the vc++2k5 compiler generates worse (read: slower) code than the 2k3 version.. so if you must download the express version to do buzzmachine development, ALSO get the free vc++2k3 compiler from microsoft (google should be able to find it.. its a pack containing compiler+linker etc but no IDE) |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 21:18 Post subject: |
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im not sure you can even create a workspace for writing buzzmachines with this, but im not familiar with anything after VC6 so i might be missing something. I dont see any win32 dynamic link projects..
Theres the class library / CLR templates which i assume can create .dlls, but I dont really know anything about that..
Theres a tutorial on the .net redist page for using the 2k3 toolkit/commandline compiler, so maybe you can just combine these? If you have the 2k3 compiler can you use it in MSVC? Like, if I have 3d app and several reneders installed or codecs, I can select which one I want.. ? |
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Zephod
Blokhead
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 21:31 Post subject: |
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in 2k3, you have to select "win32 project".. only in the second screen you can choose for "dynamic link library".. dunno if thats the same in 2k5?
at the very worst it should be possible to create a makefile project which will allow you to use any compiler you can wish for.. (ive used this to compile on a remote linux box through ssh) |
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Tuesday December 27th, 2005 23:29 Post subject: |
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they don't provide "wizards" for dll creation, but setting the linker output to dll works fine.
they don't support MFC though, that means if you want to do anything GUI-related you either have to work on plain win32 api, use a third party TK or go .NET
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IX
Cardinal
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 883
Location: mcr:uk
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| Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 16:23 Post subject: |
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usr said:
| Quote: | they don't provide "wizards" for dll creation, but setting the linker output to dll works fine.
they don't support MFC though, that means if you want to do anything GUI-related you either have to work on plain win32 api, use a third party TK or go .NET |
I'm looking at trying to code machines so I thought I'd give VC Express a try. I tried to load up and build a few different machine sources and actually managed to make a functional Jeskola Delay (but nothing else 'cos I know next to nothing about configuring stuff) so it's obviously possible to make buzz machines, although it's not easy when you're as complete a noob as I am.
So I was wondering how much of a drawback the lack of MFC support would be and whether the other options usr mentioned would be any good. What exactly would I be missing? Do you experienced dev types think it could be worth spending time trying to work with Express or should I look for another free/cheap option?
By the way, the 2k3 compiler mentioned above is no longer available but I got the Jeskola Delay to work with just the straight express installation and a bit of option guesswork. |
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Kevin
Choir Girl
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 73
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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| Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 17:20 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So I was wondering how much of a drawback the lack of MFC support would be |
For Buzz machines, it doesn't matter at all.
MFC is a Windows GUI library. Personally I don't think it's any better than using than the Windows API directly. Others may disagree, but the point is:
1. For Buzz machines, you won't need to do a whole lot of GUI programming;
2. If you do need to do GUI programming, you can still do it, you just can't use MFC.
| Quote: | | Do you experienced dev types think it could be worth spending time trying to work with Express or should I look for another free/cheap option? |
Yeah, Express will be fine. If, down the road, you find yourself saying "Gee, I really wish I had MFC" you can always upgrade.
I do Buzz and VST development using Express and I think it's perfectly adequate.
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Kevin
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IX
Cardinal
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 883
Location: mcr:uk
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| Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 22:17 Post subject: |
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Thanks Kevin, I'll stick with it. I've managed to get part of the way through Cyans effects tutorial and built the distortion example but it took a lot of head-scratching and experimentation with project settings. If you (or anyone else) can offer any general advice for converting tutorials written for full VC++ to work in Express I'd really appreciate it.
In fact if anyone can point me to useful resources for complete novices that would be great. A good book would be cool, something I can get the library to order in for me. I think need something like 'DSP for Dummies'.
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Kevin
Choir Girl
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 73
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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| Posted: Tuesday August 1st, 2006 22:33 Post subject: |
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Heh, well, I'll probably lose all my dev cred for saying this but .. what I do is import a project like Apo's template, save it as an Express project, then replace all the code. I actually have no idea how to create a Buzz project from scratch.
As for "DSP for Dummies," this might get you started:
http://www.eumus.edu.uy/docentes/jure/docs/Niemitalo_DSPForTheBraindead.html
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Kevin
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IX
Cardinal
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 883
Location: mcr:uk
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| Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 0:11 Post subject: |
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Kevin said:
| Quote: | | Heh, well, I'll probably lose all my dev cred for saying this but .. what I do is import a project like Apo's template, save it as an Express project, then replace all the code. I actually have no idea how to create a Buzz project from scratch. |
I was going to try that myself
Thanks, that's gonna be plenty helpful! |
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Xenobioz
Archbishop
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Sihanoukville Cambodia
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| Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 10:43 Post subject: |
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Im using 2003.net but wasnt able to build anything with the source codes. Tried to change options but couldnt get it to work. 
Would be nice, if there was an updated tutorial for 2k3, and for later versions too ofcourse.
Maybe we could do it here on the forum if there isnt anyone who wants to write one.
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kibibu
Pope
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Wednesday August 2nd, 2006 11:23 Post subject: |
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I use VS.net 2003, and I don't really have any problems...
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Mirfus
Monk
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 381
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 13:27 Post subject: |
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O-M-G sgrid2 source faaaaawwk
/me eats the how-to-code-buzzmachines pill and gets to work |
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Lee_dC
Priest
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 14:04 Post subject: |
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| vc98 here i think. those new ones are surely better but it looked like i would have to install heaps of garbage to make it work |
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IX
Cardinal
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 883
Location: mcr:uk
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 16:45 Post subject: |
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Am I right in thinking MFC is useful for fancy stuff like Jedshiva, Spectre and such? If that's the case then what would be the best (read 'easiest') non-MFC way to go about doing that kind of stuff? Not that I can even begin to think about doing that kind of thing yet.
Kibibu, you say .net works well for you. Works well for doing what exactly? General machine stuff? GUI? Everything? What? I'm in over my head here! |
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btd
Cardinal
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 765
Location: York, UK
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 17:33 Post subject: |
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MFC is useful for complex dialogs based on standard Windows controls. Without MFC or equivalent, things like the settings dialogs in PeerCtrl 1.5 and SGrid 2 would have been almost impossible. For things like Jedshiva and Spectre which are basically just drawing to a canvas (in a loose sense of "basically"), or say the interface on Jacinth or ld Mixer where everything is custom drawn, there's probably not much in it between MFC and the raw Win32 API.
Oh and I believe the user interface of Buzz itself was written using MFC  |
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Kevin
Choir Girl
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 73
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 17:39 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Am I right in thinking MFC is useful for fancy stuff like Jedshiva, Spectre and such? If that's the case then what would be the best (read 'easiest') non-MFC way to go about doing that kind of stuff? |
MFC is just a set of wrappers for certain Windows API calls. You could use it for making a custom GUI, or you can just use Windows API directly.
Windows API is not actually that complicated, it's just hard to know where to started for something basic like opening a window. This is an excellent tutorial:
http://www.relisoft.com/win32/index.htm
There are other GUI toolkits, like for example GTK and wxWindows, and you could potentially use those instead for your custom GUI. Those both (I think?) have GPL-type licenses, which puts some restrictions on how you can distribute the result; that may or may not be a problem for you. I personally wouldn't bother with them for something like a Buzz machine, but that's just me; whatever works for you is Great.
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IX
Cardinal
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 883
Location: mcr:uk
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 18:24 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Without MFC or equivalent, things like the settings dialogs in PeerCtrl 1.5 and SGrid 2 would have been almost impossible. |
Damn! I may need those kind of dialogs somewhere down the line. Guess I'd better get stuck into that API then.
Thanks for the tutorial link Kevin, looks like I'll be needing it. |
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btd
Cardinal
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 765
Location: York, UK
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 18:35 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kevin wrote:
MFC is just a set of wrappers for certain Windows API calls. You could use it for making a custom GUI, or you can just use Windows API directly.
Windows API is not actually that complicated, it's just hard to know where to started for something basic like opening a window. This is an excellent tutorial:
http://www.relisoft.com/win32/index.htm
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A nice thing about MFC is that it wraps up the API calls in C++ classes. Which, coincidentally, is what the code in that tutorial does. In fact I'd say the tutorial is about writing and using a minimal ad-hoc GUI toolkit, rather than what I would consider to be programming directly with the Windows API (something more like the GUI section of Cyan's tutorial, like you would do if you had C but no ++).
Another nice thing about MFC is that it integrates into the VC++ IDE via ClassWizard etc. So the more mundane things like adding an event handler for a control, or binding a class instance or variable to a control, can be done with a few mouse clicks instead of a few copy/pastes.
Some or all of the above about MFC might also apply to .net or whatever it is now, being a luddite who still uses VC++6 I can't comment. |
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Thursday August 3rd, 2006 19:20 Post subject: |
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ah, good old relisoft win32 tutorial. that's the one that finally managed to get me into C back then. i tried learning C before, i tried learning windows before, but it only worked out when i lost my sanity and tried to learn both at the same time!
would there be anything keeping you from using windows forms or whatever they ship with the more recent versions of msvc? i think they only took MFC out of the express version because they know that everybody who has an MFC legacy app (yes i consider MFC legacy, it's one of those monsters that taught the world what features of c++ to use for which problems and more importantly: what features of c++ to not throw at certain types of problems) will gladly pay for a better IDE while they want beginners to be discouraged from using MFC because that will only give them an even worse impression of microsoft.
the WTL is also worth a view (it's the thing that gives buze tabs)
my preference list:
* plain win32 for those really small single widget GUIs
* MFC for the occasional configuration dialog (where quick availability of a visual GUI builder is key)
* one of the _modern_ object oriented toolkits for serious applications (WTL, SWT, Qt, maybe Ultimate++)
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kibibu
Pope
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Friday August 4th, 2006 4:23 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Kibibu, you say .net works well for you. Works well for doing what exactly? General machine stuff? GUI? Everything? What? I'm in over my head here! |
I haven't written any gui stuff for a while (i did serpent, but that was original VC.net not 2003) but I use VS.net 2003 for making machines at the moment. Also, C# is well worth playing with and its only in VS.net (although you can't really write machines in it, its great for general application dev).
The MMX and SSE intrinsics are particularly easy, although I've only just discovered them so they might have been in VC6.
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Thursday February 22nd, 2007 15:35 Post subject: |
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From what I understand, you can use MFC and ATL with VS Express now. Some people found a work around to getting the Windows Platform SDK working in VSE and as well as enabling a few other options that appear disabled at first....
MS, along with keeping VSE free beyond the time limit they originally set hae also succumed to these workarounds for the SDK and even posted their own tutorial for getting it to work:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualc/usingpsdk/default.aspx
I stumbled across it when trying to get windows.h, etc., (you know.. all the typical shit you really need) working in VSE, then found that MS article which practically tells you how to do everything i did (and then some). Go figure
Now here's where I could be wrong.. but I believe that MFC/ATL are both in the Platform SDK, right?
Either way.. these updates imo are nessicary if you expect to use VSE for anything outside the mundane. |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Thursday February 22nd, 2007 15:44 Post subject: |
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Actually.. i think thats wrong from reading a bit more. But, the MFC and ATL libs havent really been updated right? /me digs out his old VC6 install.
Hell, you can probably get VC6 or 2003 cheap as dirt nowadays. Seems like a good solution to anyone that wants a 'current' VC on the cheap minus some of the wizardy. |
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rymix
Deacon
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Thursday February 22nd, 2007 22:26 Post subject: |
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As soon as I can find my VS2005 Enterprise install I am going to update my machine with it.
I love C# but wish it could be more real-time performance oriented for DSP code. However for machine GUI's, this is not usually as much of a problem.
Since it is absolutely crazy easy to make standard GUIs in C# in VS2005, how do you think people would feel if they needed to have .NET 2.0 framework installed to run a buzz machine?
-rymix |
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kibibu
Pope
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Thursday February 22nd, 2007 22:40 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | Actually.. i think thats wrong from reading a bit more. But, the MFC and ATL libs havent really been updated right? /me digs out his old VC6 install. |
I think MFC has changed at least a bit since VC6
not sure about ATL, but theres the whole WTL thing happening too (which extends ATL, but which version does it extend?)
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Friday February 23rd, 2007 0:38 Post subject: |
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rymix: i wouldnt care personally. ive always got .net installed anyways. might make old Windows users unhappy tho. 9x..
actually.. i think there may already be a machine or 2 that require .net |
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Friday February 23rd, 2007 22:52 Post subject: |
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i think that quite a few people would complain. mostly the same crowd that prefers running a shitload of trojans and spambots on their machine over using windows update. in other words: mostly stupid whiners that are best ignored, if you have no problem with open-sourcing your stuff they would best be taken care of with throwing a sourceball at them, "go write your own pure win32 API GUI if you want to".
i recently did a little tool in C++/CLI (completely revamped current version of what used to be "managed c++") and at first my worst expectations were met when that small tool (think 75 kB source + portmidi) used up more than 20 MB of system RAM after launch (it's the same runtime as c#...), but i was highly surprised when i witnessed the memory demand to shrink back to a less unreasonable 7 MB after initialization.
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kibibu
Pope
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1379
Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 0:55 Post subject: |
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| usr wrote: | | i think that quite a few people would complain. mostly the same crowd that prefers running a shitload of trojans and spambots on their machine over using windows update. in other words: mostly stupid whiners that are best ignored |
I agree, to a degree. Unless people are accessing the net at work and playing buzz on their disconnected 98 box at home which causes no harm...
Are there other GUI libraries that are worth looking into? I know wx runs on a bunch of platforms - maybe for ease of porting to Aldrin wx might be nice (or another, I don't really know much wx)
| Quote: |
i recently did a little tool in C++/CLI (completely revamped current version of what used to be "managed c++") |
I'm glad I didn't take the time to learn managed C++ then!!
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 9:42 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | i think that quite a few people would complain. mostly the same crowd that prefers running a shitload of trojans and spambots on their machine over using windows update. |
talk about summing it up perfectly. sometimes i forget im a "good computer user" snob and expect the best outta everyone... when in reality its the lowest common demoninator. im sure i come off as a prick because of this.. quite often =X
back on the subject.. in my quest to use demo source/projects without being forced to install my ancient copy of vc++ i also came across this:
http://www.codeproject.com/wtl/WTLExpress.asp
so not only is it possible to use the platform sdk but you can also get wtl/atl to work in vs express for free as well.
still no luck on mfc though, not without a commercial vc++ install.. |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 9:45 Post subject: |
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hahaha i just noticed my new subtitle or byline or whatever you wanna call it. super funny wayfinder =]
edit: wait, what.. it just changed back to pope. 'poised to strike' had me rolling. hey look its my 1,000 post. im such a loser!  what can i say. buzz and buzz users rule  |
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wayfinder
my afro is puffy what are you talking about
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 1605
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 10:52 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | hahaha i just noticed my new subtitle or byline or whatever you wanna call it. super funny wayfinder =]
edit: wait, what.. it just changed back to pope. 'poised to strike' had me rolling. hey look its my 1,000 post. im such a loser! what can i say. buzz and buzz users rule |
hahahah congrats! 
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 22:54 Post subject: |
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so, what would be the next step after pope? "oskari"?
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wayfinder
my afro is puffy what are you talking about
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 1605
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Saturday February 24th, 2007 23:05 Post subject: |
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well I fear some patience will be needed before we find out!
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rymix
Deacon
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location: Birmingham, AL
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| Posted: Tuesday February 27th, 2007 6:44 Post subject: |
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| kibibu wrote: |
Are there other GUI libraries that are worth looking into? I know wx runs on a bunch of platforms - maybe for ease of porting to Aldrin wx might be nice (or another, I don't really know much wx)
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wxWidgets (formally wxWindows until MS contacted them with a friendly email ) seems to be quite mature, supported, stable, and robust. I have been considering using it for a while now over other solutions (including win32 and MFC). Either that or .NET Framework via a C# or C++ library. It is recommended from what I have read that you compile wxWidgets into your app instead of making it a shared lib to avoid versioning problems, so your dll can become a bit fat (a few megabytes from what I've read). However, .NET will consume a bit more run-time memory and possibly a slight initial lag while it JITs the MSIL (they recommend you not compile down your app).
I've also been thinking about some of the Python solutions (including wxPython). I would have to learn Python, but then again, I learned C++ just to write StereoBox . I guess I'm so spoiled at writing in C# for the past 5 years.
-rymix |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Tuesday February 27th, 2007 11:47 Post subject: |
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imo.. python was one of the easiest languages ive ever worked with. theres a rad/res editor for wxpython too that works really well.
http://www.roebling.de/sshots.html |
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