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wayfinder
my afro is puffy what are you talking about
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 1605
Location: Berlin, Germany
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 Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 16:22 Post subject: It's times like these when I wish I could properly program |
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Aldrin Win32 is not going to be continued, and the way things are going, the Win32 fork (called Buzz Rmx) is probably going to be dead within a month - paniq just isn't interested in working for the Win32 platform, which is understandable given that he uses linux.
| Quote: | | Instead we will do a fork called Buzz RMX, which deals exclusively with Windows-only demands such as VST and Buzz formats support, and will be frozen once finished, ready for being picked up by a third party that is interested enough to keep the project going. |
I had so much hope for Aldrin, but this is kind of a downer. Let's hope someone with more coding abilities than me is willing to take over development. I'm not optimistic though. People usually seem to prefer their own projects over work on someone else's baby.
I'd like to write a huge rant about the open source delusion, but I really don't have the energy right now. Let's just say that I've personally buried all hope that this particular project is going to spawn the program to which I move on from Buzz.
RIP.
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gazzz
Archbishop
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 691
Location: Moscow RU
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 17:40 Post subject: |
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| wil be buze alive ? |
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Exorph
Deacon
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 18:10 Post subject: |
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| Maybe it's time to install Linux on my comp after all.. <_< |
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Mirfus
Monk
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 381
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 18:26 Post subject: go paniq |
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Paniq's plan to get everyone on linux continues... 
Personally I'm more interested with the linux side anyway but it's clear a windows port will be missed. This is definitely where buze comes in handy. I wouldn't think Calvin would give up on it so there is hope Wayfinder!
I know the projects do have their differences, especially GUI-wise but guess we just have to wait and see. |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 18:59 Post subject: |
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Buze is still being developed and paniq's contributions to the libzubb will of course be a part of that - so there's still several great heads working on this project together for windows. directly and indirectly.
I dont nessicarily think this is bad news.. it's unfortunate yeah, but it's not the end of the world. Buze itself is still comming along nicely.
I wish I had a time machine...  |
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tzhau
Converted Sinner
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 15
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 19:09 Post subject: |
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While Aldrin previously had the crossplatform element going for it, projects competing for no good reason is something that I personally find delusional in the opensource world. Buzzrmx and Buze will in essence be the same thing and I don't see why they should fragment the community even more.
Still Buzzrmx is a very near 1:1 copy of original buzz written in a powerful language, making it an interesting artifact. It can be the foundation for other people starting clones or a place that be used for experimenting with new buzz-of-the-future ideas.
Paniq is going in interesting directions with Aldrin, and Calvin continues working on Buze. Perhaps buzzrmx can be something positive that can help both of them. |
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paniq
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 19:27 Post subject: Re: go paniq |
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| Mirfus wrote: | Paniq's plan to get everyone on linux continues...
Personally I'm more interested with the linux side anyway but it's clear a windows port will be missed. This is definitely where buze comes in handy. I wouldn't think Calvin would give up on it so there is hope Wayfinder!
I know the projects do have their differences, especially GUI-wise but guess we just have to wait and see. |
There have been various considerations taking place beforehand, and Tzhau and me, we've discussed this back and forth.
Please take following reasoning into account before you evaluate my decision:
- I am doing all this work in my free time. In order to keep it interesting enough, and to maintain a motivated attitude, there has to be a certain incentive.
- My personal interests are an incentive. Your personal interests are no incentive.
- I am interested in an easy platform for musical collaboration, in flawless cross-platform compatibility, a long life of data, being able to use the program for live acts and generating music (intelligent arpeggio .
- Linux audio is a new frontier and seriously lacks good applications. Windows is a mature audio platform and provides already a serious amount of applications.
- I am interested in a free platform for musical collaboration. I want to contribute to something that is in the process of growing up. I want to see less money involved in creative processes. I do not like vendor lock-ins. We seriously need more people willing to frustrate themselves over getting a free platform to work.
- Most of the issues in the bug tracker are legacy/win32-related. Finding these in the bug tracker for a program which is perceived by me to be the future generates a certain feeling of being stuck. A wish grew to address these issues separately.
- The goal initially set was to provide a compatible 1:1 clone. To leave a final 1.2 release ready to be picked up by anyone else has been part of the plan from the beginning.
- Pieter Holtzhausen noted that my futuristic ideas and the initial goal set collided. I was already implementing solutions for problems that were part of future long term goals, not legacy issues. Still, I wanted to keep my promise. Forking the codebase was the only solution.
- For Win32, Buzé is already a good replacement and followup for Buzz. I do not want to interfere with Calvins development, and rather focus on a new and underdeveloped platform.
Perhaps, you do not really know what to expect from my (in my opinion quite unimportant) announcement. There will only be benefits: the issues you reported will be tackled, and fixed in subsequent releases. The directory structure will be adapted to what Win32 users are used to. The releases will be self-contained, no additional dependencies such as Python or wxPython will be neccessary. The project will arrive at a state where it is easy to just switch.
At this point, I expect someone to come forward and apply his own patches to the codebase. New changes here and there, coming directly from the community. Inclusion of downloads to buzzmachines.com. More and more interest in extending Buzz RMX.
You underestimate the community. Past experience tells us that it has proven to be strong, _especially_ when the program ceased to be developed! |
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Saturday December 23rd, 2006 19:53 Post subject: |
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I think everything you just posted is on point and made in good judgement. Some of your concerns over this and the decision to put off or drop the win32 version also addresses some of the worries I had about the 2 projects (buze/aldrin) interfering with each other. I'm also glad to see the light has been turned onto the legacy/future idea issues.. that had me a bit worried as well. I still look forward to both of these apps seperately and im actually encouraged a bit to see a bit more seperation between the 2 projects. I tried to point some of that out the other day but i think i got distracted into talking about something else and then we just bitched sarcastically for an hour or so like you and i usually do ;] case in point:
| Quote: | | The directory structure will be adapted to what Win32 users are used to. The releases will be self-contained, no additional dependencies such as Python or wxPython will be neccessary. The project will arrive at a state where it is easy to just switch. |
Big part of the conversation we were having and I'm glad to hear this =]
Also.. as a linux user (though I dont use it for multimedia typically and mostly in a professional/admin enviroment) I'm excited to see a REAL music app come along. There are a few editors and composition/hosts already (and some proprietary h/w software combos) but nothing along the lines of what Aldrin wants to achieve... and if you succeed (and i have faith) I believe that when a stable milestone release comes out that it'll make alot of waves in the linux community. Could be on the verge of something rather big ;] |
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Mirfus
Monk
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 381
Location: Leeds, UK
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| Posted: Sunday December 24th, 2006 13:06 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | I'm excited to see a REAL music app come along. There are a few editors and composition/hosts already (and some proprietary h/w software combos) but nothing along the lines of what Aldrin wants to achieve... and if you succeed (and i have faith) I believe that when a stable milestone release comes out that it'll make alot of waves in the linux community. Could be on the verge of something rather big ;] |
 OH YEAH |
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Kodoichi
Cardinal
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 815
Location: Aldribuzzlé
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| Posted: Sunday December 24th, 2006 14:20 Post subject: |
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| And please, something you Linux-coders often forget: make the interface pretty looking and easy to use. |
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Monday December 25th, 2006 13:48 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | but i think i got distracted into talking about something else and then we just bitched sarcastically for an hour or so like you and i usually do ;] |
this could be between virtually anybody on #buzz 
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Farq
Disciple of Eris
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Monday December 25th, 2006 15:26 Post subject: |
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I'm sad to see the win32 aldrin go, but it's a good thing I got this news sooner rather than later. I'm kinda banking on the future of aldrin, and I was about to buy some expensive VSTs, but I guess I should hold off on that now. Someday I expect to see linux VST support, though I don't know what form it will come in...
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mute
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| Posted: Tuesday December 26th, 2006 22:10 Post subject: |
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| Kodoichi wrote: | | And please, something you Linux-coders often forget: make the interface pretty looking and easy to use. |
theres so many things wrong with this statement i dunno where to begin. |
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Farq
Disciple of Eris
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 483
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wednesday December 27th, 2006 0:14 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | Kodoichi wrote: | | And please, something you Linux-coders often forget: make the interface pretty looking and easy to use. |
theres so many things wrong with this statement i dunno where to begin. |
I think it's a valid request. "Pretty" is IMO irrelevant, but "doesn't hurt my eyes" is actaully important. Bad UI design in realtime audio apps is a serious showstopper. I don't think we have to worry about this at all with early aldrin, and I can only assume it will only improve as time goes by.
But to support the argument, there are a lot of Linux audio apps I'd be using if they didn't have terrible UIs. As it stands, I don't even use linux for audio.
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sgorpi
Choir Girl
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Wednesday December 27th, 2006 12:03 Post subject: |
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ever looked at this? http://ardour.org/
if i could use all the buzz plugins in this baby i would be using it for sure  |
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Farq
Disciple of Eris
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wednesday December 27th, 2006 22:35 Post subject: |
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Heh, I think paniq's going to get what he wants. Lately I've been very tempted to try the linux audio thing again, and I keep seeing things like this that make me more and more tempted.
Can't be a bad thing, but I'll have to learn to do without VSTs.
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Kodoichi
Cardinal
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 815
Location: Aldribuzzlé
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 10:58 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | Kodoichi wrote: | | And please, something you Linux-coders often forget: make the interface pretty looking and easy to use. |
theres so many things wrong with this statement i dunno where to begin. |
Ever tried using The GIMP? Its interface doesn't even come close to old programs like Deluxe Paint, it's so hideous and makes workflow non-existant. Buzz looks like a Windows 3.1 program and makes my productivity go 
I'm not a professional sound engineer that can do his mastering and compression in a DOS-like environment because in the end, it's only the audio that matters, but even the software programs used by professionals have graphical knobs and switches, which also might be a reason for amateurs buying it -> "Oh, this program looks cool and modern, it HAS to be good"
If afterwards they notice this doesn't make them able to create their one-hit-wonder with it, they still can put it aside, but at least the software company managed to sell one more product.
Of course paniq first wants to have a stable program ported to Linux, but once it's done, building a big user base will also be something to achieve. Or maybe that's just how I feel. |
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kibibu
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Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 12:26 Post subject: Re: It's times like these when I wish I could properly progr |
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| wayfinder wrote: | | paniq just isn't interested in working for the Win32 platform, which is understandable given that he uses linux. |
So, perhaps it gets finished and polished for linux then back-ported? Its Python mostly anyways, and the libzzub stuff will continue to be worked on by Calvin most likely - so its just the VST and Buzz support that will need major work, and perhaps Polac might be kind enough to share some expertise, and guys like BTD and Chimp have experience writing Buzz hosts too (ie groupie, rebuzz, etc) not to mention Calvin's Buze work.
In the meantime, Buzz hasn't stopped working suddenly, so there's no real crisis here is there?
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cyanphase
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Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 14:09 Post subject: |
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| Farq wrote: | | But to support the argument, there are a lot of Linux audio apps I'd be using if they didn't have terrible UIs. As it stands, I don't even use linux for audio. |
It's probably because the way apps on the mac and windows have evolved were strictly to be easy for users with $ (the ones that knew their beige box contains magic, and the magic might disappear if they open it up, so they dare not try), and the OS vendors had unambiguous widgets and user interface guidelines they enforced with little "designed for" logos (with the shrinkwrap crowd at least). This probably drove the way apps worked for some while to be uniform and easy on those platforms. Lately though visual appeal (the jello look, the metal look, etc) is overuling usability a bit these days. Unix has been special because so many people wrote so many things for it, with clashing ideals, the same way we get everything from Perl to Smalltalk. There seems to be fundamental differences between the unix philosophy (do very little very well), x11, usability and various group's ideas of visual appeal, there's even people fighting over Gnome vs. KDE being "better", so that probably makes GUI decisions for a unix app a bit interesting.
| Kodoichi wrote: | | Ever tried using The GIMP? |
I've heard a lot of graphic designers avoid that program. Programs that follow closer the way Photoshop and similar painters work seems to win in this way.
| Kodoichi wrote: | | Buzz looks like a Windows 3.1 program and makes my productivity go |
I have to say I love Buzz's interface for its minimalist use of real estate (that isn't the song's data itself) and use of popup menus to get everything done. I find it hard to get used to other modern music apps because of all the things competing for screen real estate all the time. This includes stuff like FL which has a lot of dynamic (buttons everywhere) and static (tiled background images) to distract me and many trackers with classic lineages that have that large button array taking up 1/5 of the screen. Buzz is the first tracker I've used though, so there's definitely bias. |
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usr
Pope
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1156
Location: nuremberg, franconia, germany, europe
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 16:29 Post subject: |
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No amount of ray traced knobs will ever give you the effective workflow of real hardware.
But they are very effective at keeping you from reaching the effective workflow you could achieve with software. The advantages of those two worlds are rather exclusive from each other, trying to emulate one with the other will only give you the worst of both worlds.
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mute
Angel
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 3361
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 21:45 Post subject: |
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| cyanphase wrote: | | Kodoichi wrote: | | Ever tried using The GIMP? |
I've heard a lot of graphic designers avoid that program. Programs that follow closer the way Photoshop and similar painters work seems to win in this way. |
old news - http://www.gimpshop.net/
you also failed to mention gimp is free, photoshop is way overpriced and severely warezed.
| Quote: |
| Kodoichi wrote: | | Buzz looks like a Windows 3.1 program and makes my productivity go |
I have to say I love Buzz's interface for its minimalist use of real estate (that isn't the song's data itself) and use of popup menus to get everything done. (...) |
Before I rant.. I want to say we're talking about the GUI not additional features. That is an entirely different subject.
And we might as well get this straight as well - NO, it absolutely does not look like a Windows 3.1 app... have you ever even used win 3.1? Win95/98... sure. 3.1? hahaha.. i laf.
Buzz's workflow on the Modular editor is to be praised and ALOT that is already there is taken granted for by some people. As far as the modular editing goes, there isnt much to improve on except on features. Sure it could look a little slicker via colors and bordering, etc. but as far as the layout and UI is concerned its unique and smooth and thats why so many people try to duplicate it. Other ways to implement modularity are harmed by over thinking.
Oskari got several things right (his implementation of modular audio software was one of the very earliest, if not the (when in regards to connecting/routing via modules)). Displaying and requiring the connection of seperate stereo pairs, for example are so completely pointless when it can handled automagically. So are the individual input ports.. there is absolutely no reason to display or require these types of connections when it can be automated and handled within the plugins themselves (for example in bidule, reaktor, or eXT if you had a drum machine plugin with multiple outputs.. say 8 of them.. you would manually have to connect all 8 of those outs to 8 ins. Buzz has this problem too for the most part but some of its approach was on key to circumventing this (the "wireless" parts of buzz). You still have access to the individual channels.. theres just no reason to actually require that much user interaction. And before its said.. not displaying them or doing this automatically would not prevent the user from taking advantage of the multi io and pairings. And different kinds of machines could easily take advantange of different output types, so on so forth (cyans app is a good example of this).
The only way I think the gui coud be improved would be 1) slicker color options, better borders, get rid of the default windows frame on machine popups, a few more graphics but NOTHING or anything that would change the current design. Basically place a lil candy on what we already got.
One of the main things I want for the buzz modular view is smaller machine box sizes. But when you have a zoom control and a default layout you can save.. this need begins to go away.
Darkwave's default machine popup is a good example of making a small change to something that already works. Actually, the overall design of that app is pretty decent (other than it demands piano roll sequencing over any other options.. but hey its an alternative for that very reason so its ok). Shame he is taking so long to get anywhere with it. http://www.experimentalscene.com/experimentalscene/darkwave/
The sequencer needs a SERIOUS overhaul, but everyone knows that. Audio tracks, envelopes, grouping, etc. The vertical sequencer style has to remain though - we're talking about buzz, not a new cubase.
Replacing defaut windows application frames on the main windows, etc. like in floops and many other apps is a seriously bad idea with "serious" applications such as audio and graphic programs. Why? 1) its almost always a resource whore 2) it's extremely hard to do tastefully and when it is done tastefully they look and operate much like the originals anyways (ableton) 3) blah humbug. 4) they almost always end up interfering with the OS's familiar and inherent way of window positioning, resizing, moving, etc. which makes it feel bloated and cumbersome.
Last, and i think this is the most important part - this is a serious application, it's geeked out and meant for usability over presentation. Before you go thinking reinventing the GUI world go take a look at other modular applications such as audiomulch, reaktor, bidule, max/msp, ext. Look at the modular windows. They are functional, not pretty.
Speaking of audiomulch.. that is possibly the ugliest modular editor out there but does it hurt its popularity? No, it helps it. Outside of buzz, its probably the best implementation of routing. Still.. it's ugly as sin.
Oh.. it's also worth noting that when you are talking in such polar extremes like this - many (if not most) buzz users would probably be more favorable to it looking like max/msp before something like floops, reason, or anything along those lines. Obviously, no one really wants either but you get the point?
Buze's approach isnt all that bad really. Though something will eventually and hopefully have to be done about the docked windows and floating windows options. Docked windows for the parameter editing does not cut it for me and the docked patterns is just WEIRD and odd to work with.
Will I ever stop typing?
There is a simple difference between feature requests/dreams and actually wanting a different program. Different programs already exists. |
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Farq
Disciple of Eris
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 483
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 22:33 Post subject: |
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mute, I wouldn't complain about the existing Buzz UI except in a couple of places (mostly the way it handles horizontal scrolling, Buze is even worse for it.)
Anyway, I'll be making a wonderful mess when the day comes that I can bind parameters to the sequence view and draw control changes down the line.
I don't think there are as many demons as you expect in the beefed up UI department. I find apps with custom UIs (in terms of widgets etc.) often promote better workflow, but I know what you mean about custom UIs that are just meant to look pretty.
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cyanphase
Deacon
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Thursday December 28th, 2006 23:43 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | cyanphase wrote: | | Kodoichi wrote: | | Ever tried using The GIMP? |
I've heard a lot of graphic designers avoid that program. Programs that follow closer the way Photoshop and similar painters work seems to win in this way. |
old news - http://www.gimpshop.net/
you also failed to mention gimp is free, photoshop is way overpriced and severely warezed.
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Actually it's stuff I've heard here and there, and mostly about the interfaces rather than the applications. Some interesting links about this:
http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Why_open_source_is_under_utilised_in_graphics
http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/03/07/1813207
| mute wrote: | | Quote: | | Kodoichi wrote: | | Buzz looks like a Windows 3.1 program and makes my productivity go |
I have to say I love Buzz's interface for its minimalist use of real estate (that isn't the song's data itself) and use of popup menus to get everything done. (...) |
Before I rant.. I want to say we're talking about the GUI not additional features. That is an entirely different subject. (...) |
Mute ye' smokin hamsters tonight (juicy ones) . I don't think I had much to do with that reply anyway. Though, about the multiple lines between two machines I think it's interesting. I was actually unsure how to proceed with different types of lines between two machines at this point. By keeping lines of different types separate between two machines it complicates the visual aspect of the machine view (like moving each other's lines out of the way) but simplifies some other details (like manipulating the line's data, etc). But I like the idea of always a single line between two machines, so I'm thinking that these bundles of lines could be a meta-type of it's own, now I just need to think how to treat line manipulation...
| mute wrote: | | Replacing defaut windows application frames on the main windows, etc. |
To me custom window frames always seems to associate itself somewhat with the words "consumer grade". It just reminds me of those corny bundleware apps that come with video capture and webcams.
| Farq wrote: | | Anyway, I'll be making a wonderful mess when the day comes that I can bind parameters to the sequence view and draw control changes down the line. |
heh |
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Farq
Disciple of Eris
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 483
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Friday December 29th, 2006 1:34 Post subject: |
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| cyanphase wrote: | | But I like the idea of always a single line between two machines, so I'm thinking that these bundles of lines could be a meta-type of it's own, now I just need to think how to treat line manipulation... |
Different colours? I personally like the idea of Colour-coding the lines to their function (even if you have to make them thicker, with a border or whatever.) Presumably machines would connect, by default, with the most complete set of common types. You could then assign each colour to a visual layer and turn on/off the layers and have a nice workflow without over cluttering. Maybe use a tack construct of some kind to keep a line/bundle out of the way of something or whatever.
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bernielomax
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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Location: norway, oslo
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| Posted: Friday December 29th, 2006 4:46 Post subject: |
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Oh this debate is about a lot of stuff...
While there are a lot of good ideas about what should be done, it is important to note that it is up to each coder to decide what to code. Some stuff are great ideas that coders can't resist doing, but cosmetic changes that adds no functionality but to clutter the code is not the favourite from my experience.
Perhaps at some point it will be natural to move the Peer-machines into the modular editor. And before that point it will actually be helpful if some people create mockups of how it should look. Just saying "more modularity" does not convery enough information to help the coder from deciding for ages what is the right thing to implement.
I am working on putting up a community site for zzub-related projects (no time line yet) and I find it exiciting. There is a lot of cool ideas on my schedule and onput for this process will be helpful.
The code for the software is easy to read and well written. So any skilled coder who arrives with the intention to add cool features can help out. That is why I intend to set up a wiki where people can help out with Zzub with (hopefully) well designed proposals for features (if paniq hasn't already set it up so this is possible on the Buzz RMX wiki).
The clearer a feature proposal is, the easier it is to implement. Eg. there are a lot of nice proposed features for Zzub, but the process is odd since you really don't know if they will be practical until they are coded.
\\ aka phed |
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cyanphase
Deacon
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Friday December 29th, 2006 10:59 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | The vertical sequencer style has to remain though - we're talking about buzz, not a new cubase. |
That would be like the shrine of Buzz. It makes sense anyway since the patterns are vertical as well. That would be funny to have patterns like this:
_________
C . . . E . . .
- . . . # . . .
4 . . . 3 . . .
0 . . . 0 . . .
1 . . . A . . .
| Farq wrote: | | Different colours? I personally like the idea of Colour-coding the lines to their function (even if you have to make them thicker, with a border or whatever.) |
Nakalyne actually already has color coded lines for a little while (where link plugins specify the color they want), though my thoughts are more on a specific situation. When more than a line (like audio bus 1, audio bus 2, and an automation link) would go between two machines like a vocoder and synth.
Let's say "types" are things that can only exist once between two modules, first audio bus would be a type and second audio bus would be another. "multi-in" or "multi-out" would refer to having many lines coming in or coming out of a module (not to be confused with multi-out when talking about multi-type, auxbus-less output from a machine). Many multi-type modular designs (the reaktor types) are either not multi-in (non mixing) or not multi-out (non cached) so they don't need to worry about this (the pins are the "modules" in this case). Buzz is basically single-type (there's channel modes, but there is only one set of channels, where AuxBus is used for more) but allowed multi-in and multi-out, Buzz has one "pin" for each machine, but this also won't cause interference. When multi-type, multi-in, multi-out occurs then non-moved links become a problem. Linkage like this between machine cause a headache for me because of same space interference, since both will draw right over each other and react to mouse commands right in the same spot. Some modulars fix this by having the link be movable (can be offset, or bent around like a bezier curve) but it's not a solution I like.
One thought is to have a meta-type link would really just be a group of types (similar to a group of machines), it could be grey and have "..." for endpoint icons. And it can expand to a parallel mode (the group "decomposes" temporarily) when a connected machine is selected to allow for manipulating a link's arrow (like dragging volumes, right click, etc).
| Farq wrote: | | Presumably machines would connect, by default, with the most complete set of common types. You could then assign each colour to a visual layer and turn on/off the layers and have a nice workflow without over cluttering. |
This is also being done with the "Visible Links" button as well, though I haven't completed it. Similar basically to stuff like Flash and Photoshop.
Edit: had to edit a bit |
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usr
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| Posted: Friday December 29th, 2006 14:24 Post subject: |
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talking dirty wild naka line phantasies:
i've always imagined my dream modular to be single line, like buzz, but with a line-type specific icon in the place where buzz puts the little triangle (maybe with an added triangle to show direction). based on this it would be rather obvious what to do with overloaded connects: multiple icons on a single line, like beads on a string
(and, hyper-ideally, the icons could be mini-GUIs on their own, showing amp/pan or something like that, but that's even deeper into dreamland, don't bother with that)
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Farq
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| Posted: Friday December 29th, 2006 20:40 Post subject: |
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| cyanphase wrote: | | When multi-type, multi-in, multi-out occurs then non-moved links become a problem. Linkage like this between machine cause a headache for me because of same space interference, since both will draw right over each other and react to mouse commands right in the same spot. Some modulars fix this by having the link be movable (can be offset, or bent around like a bezier curve) but it's not a solution I like. |
Mouse-over magnifier/seperation? Like this:
| Code: |
____
[machine]------==____==-----[machine]
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where the mouse pointer has moved to the line, it splits like that. (In this case, 2 connections between the 2 machines.) I'm not sure if this is within the realm of things you want to do. You could probably just pop some kind of overlay on there.
I like usr's idea too.
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mute
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| Posted: Saturday December 30th, 2006 22:28 Post subject: |
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| usr wrote: | talking dirty wild naka line phantasies:
i've always imagined my dream modular to be single line, like buzz, but with a line-type specific icon in the place where buzz puts the little triangle (maybe with an added triangle to show direction). based on this it would be rather obvious what to do with overloaded connects: multiple icons on a single line, like beads on a string
(and, hyper-ideally, the icons could be mini-GUIs on their own, showing amp/pan or something like that, but that's even deeper into dreamland, don't bother with that) |
making the connector icons/tools whateveru want to call them is definitly something to improve on. groupies combined amp/pan is a cool swing on it.. one thing ive always kind of wish for was a way that the mid points (the arrows/amps in buzz) could be selected/multi-selected. like; right click drag select, let go of right click.. context menu pops up.. one of the options being 'insert' so you could insert a machine inbetween multiple machines, etc with ease. i know u are kind of getting onto the bigger picture w/ them but simple feature additions like this to the existing ui would be more than awesome.
when it comes down to it im really more concerned w. adding features and extending the current UI/workflow than retackling the 'prettiness' of the guis of these apps. `course, all i got is suggestions and experience like most of us so |
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bernielomax
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greenfinger
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| Posted: Tuesday January 2nd, 2007 20:23 Post subject: |
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passion !
it brings a tear to your eye................ |
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paniq
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 1:21 Post subject: |
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| he left out my references to drugs and sex from the interview |
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Farq
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 3:41 Post subject: |
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I notice someone slipped him a comment to harass you about your personal life. *AS SEEN ON IRC*
On a more serious note, cool interview. I wouldn't hold up to one of those very well.
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usr
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 6:57 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I wouldn't hold up to one of those very well. |
the good thing about email interviews is that your lawyer can do them for you 
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Kodoichi
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 10:14 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | And we might as well get this straight as well - NO, it absolutely does not look like a Windows 3.1 app... have you ever even used win 3.1? Win95/98... sure. 3.1? hahaha.. i laf. |
Yes, I have used 3.1, even when most people already had Win95 I was still using it.
Buzz definitely looks like a Win3.1 application: http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4163/comparisonxh9.png |
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Farq
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 16:47 Post subject: |
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Scribbles make me smile.
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usr
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| Posted: Wednesday January 3rd, 2007 22:23 Post subject: |
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so buzz has "3d" frames around the icons on the toolbar and not the no-frame-unless-mouseover toolbar style that got popular with office 97 (iirc).
if that's the most aggravating problem with buzz then buzz has to be the best software ever. sorry, i'm not impressed.
btw, the only real innovation in toolbar looks that happened after the days of 16 bit windows is greying out unusable icons, and guess what: buzz has that.
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mute
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| Posted: Thursday January 4th, 2007 0:09 Post subject: |
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... use of default widgets on a windows toolbar does not reflect anything or any real similarity to a win3.1 program. however,. this is way besides the point and who really gives a rats ass?
you have your head wrapped around the idea that looks, bulked up graphics, and pretty toolbars some how reflect the usability or modernity of an application. very naive. i think cyan summed it up pretty nicely:
| Quote: | | To me custom window frames always seems to associate itself somewhat with the words "consumer grade". |
ui wise there are good reasons for this - which is also reflected by this being a very common opinion in the pro-audio and pro-video/animation worlds (i guess you could lump programming enviroments in there as well).
if i had to choose from your screenshots which programs i would even likely want to use simply from those little gui snippets, it would go like this (top:most, bottom:least):
(assuming i have never used any of them before):
buzz
modplug (tho i know its features and will never use it anyways)
fruityloops (we're only talkin menu screens here tho, haha. otherwords X)
renoise
cubase
soundtracker
(knowing i have used all of them):
buzz
renoise
cubase (default windows toolbar is trimmed out of your image btw)
fruityloops
modplug
soundtracker
rules of thumb:
pretty buttons are no substitute for clearly marked items/menus.
web2.0 design/dreams has nothing to do application design. i find people who are ridiculously caught up in webdesign hype to be beyond impractical. this has nothing to do w/ this conversation really.. but ive gotten in UI debates many a times with fellow webdevs.
just to give you an idea of how far off base you are, here is a screenshot that is much more revelevant to the discussion. btw, take note that the only app here that overrides default windowing behavior is 1) mainly used as a plugin 2) not truly modular:
function > appearance = sexy. |
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paniq
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Kodoichi
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| Posted: Thursday January 4th, 2007 15:01 Post subject: |
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| mute wrote: | | you have your head wrapped around the idea that looks, bulked up graphics, and pretty toolbars some how reflect the usability or modernity of an application. very naive. |
First you assume I never used Windows 3.1, now you think I like Teletubbies- and My First Sony-like interfaces.
I like the Renoise and Fruity Loops interfaces a lot, even if the close button of the window in FL is somewhere in the middle, but the interface is consistent. It doesn't mean I like bloated eyecandy that looks like clay. Have a look at:
http://www.hgf-synthesizer.de/se/X-WoF/x-wof3.html
Too much bevel and emboss. Probably used the default settings in Photoshop to create it.
http://www.svarsoft.com/st.html (Buzé clone?)
Notice the gradients, choice of colours and various elements do not fit together. I most probably won't use this program.
And I don't understand why you compare my ideas of application interfaces with webdesign. I'm not asking for a tag cloud and reflections in Buzz.
Here's my quick take at a Buzz redesign:
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/8418/buzzmodernsv4.png
(...and afterwards I noticed it looks a lot like Garageband, even if I don't own a Mac)
Edit:
Weirdest program I used -> Analog Box ( http://www.andyware.com/index.html ) |
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